So any successful prints yet?

rkundlarkundla Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
Some people have had their printer for a week now, any progress to share with the rest of us?
Ron
«1

Comments

  • David_BarryDavid_Barry Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    Just the red print Shane Printed it is a Calibration Print.

    http://3dfacture.com/help/index.php?p=/discussion/132/first-backer-print-on-the-draken
    Hudson Valley, NY Draken Ultimate Package Arrived 7-6-2015
  • sabotagesabotage Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    Sorry, I spent too much time last week working on the Draken when I should have working my "day" job... had to catch up on real work this week...

    I will likely try another calibration print this evening, now that I've finished most of the fiddling with the RPi2B+CWH and getting the firmware updated with code changes to auto power on the projector.  I *think* I calibrated the projector correctly, but, honestly, this is the most trouble I'm having at the moment... being sure it's calibrated.

    If I have time, I'll try to print something a bit more interesting... anyone have any suggestions and, ideally, a link to a pre-sliced .cws file with supports added if needed?  I'm new to the modeling part and would take too much time trying to figure all that out and not actually get to printing today otherwise.  It should be a model sliced for the 3rd position (50micron XY, 96mm x 54mm envelope).

    Shane...
    imageBacker(Ultimate Package - delivered on July 1, 2015)
  • David_BarryDavid_Barry Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    This is why I asked for the 3D Facture Rook CWS file the one the printed for the low end backers.
    Hudson Valley, NY Draken Ultimate Package Arrived 7-6-2015
  • sabotagesabotage Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    @bryan, yeah, I'd like to print that eventually, but I'm not confident that I'm at the point yet where I could load that into a slicer, scale it and print it... all this evening ;)  If you want to slice it for me in CW using the Draken configs for the 50micron XY resolution, I'd be happy to give it a shot on the Draken.
    Shane...
    imageBacker(Ultimate Package - delivered on July 1, 2015)
  • bryanbryan Member, Backers
    I would if I could, but I'm too busy for the next few weeks.
  • Andrew_3DfactureAndrew_3Dfacture Member, Moderator, Backers
    edited July 2015
    Sure, we can provide a pre-sliced Rook CSW file.
    The stp file is from this link:   https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:834813
  • sabotagesabotage Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    edited July 2015

    So I printed the calibration model again last night, and I'm still not getting the dimensions I am expecting based on our previous conversations.












    DimensionExpectedActual
    width20mm26.24mm
    height20mm26.24mm
    bar 13mm4.09mm
    bar 22mm2.71mm
    bar 31mm1.31mm
    bar 40.5mm0.68mm
    bar 50.4mm0.51mm
    bar 60.3mm0.37mm
    bar 70.2mm0.25mm

    So, clearly this calibration is harder than I've given it credit for... Anyone have any tips, suggestions, videos, or tutorials on how to do it "right"?

    Shane...
    imageBacker(Ultimate Package - delivered on July 1, 2015)
  • kniborknibor Member, Backers
    Sabotage, you could use the adjust button in the machinesettinhs page of creation workshop host. Just print a cube 10x10x10 mm and enter the actual measuring in the adjust button (at build size) and CW Will do the rest
  • sabotagesabotage Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    Not sure I follow, and my draken is asleep for the night, so I can't really try/see what you are describing.

    More importantly, I had a massive failure today while printing a model... lets just say I'm glad the Ultimate package came with 2 VATs  :((

    Some of the problems are my fault, and some may be manufacturing/quality control issues that the 3D Facture team will want to know about and look into for future productions of the VATs.  Suffice it to say that the PDMS and Teflon layers ended up with a rip in the build area, allowing resin under it, creating a nearly permanently attached blob of resin on the clear acrylic, so that VAT is DONE for sure.  

    I'm heading out of town for the weekend, w/out network/cell coverage so I will have wait and post pictures and details on what happened when I'm back early next week.
    Shane...
    imageBacker(Ultimate Package - delivered on July 1, 2015)
  • Joseph_OsbornJoseph_Osborn Member, Backers
    How many ultimate backers have received their printers? Have any of the ultimate backers been able to use their printer properly yet?

  • Andrew_3DfactureAndrew_3Dfacture Member, Moderator, Backers
    @Shane - we are willing send you to a replacement VAT if you find that failure is due to the defects in the production process. The teflon layer coating involves quite complicated process, we are improving the VAT manufacturing process to avoid any potential defects.

    Another hint is that do not print in the same area, in particular after a few failed prints.  The VAT could be damaged in one failed print when we use VAT without Telfon coating.  With Teflon coating, it is much better but still don't expect it to sustain lots of failed print in the same area, which accumulate tons of heat that damage the VAT.

    Majority of the ultimate backer should have received their printers now.
  • rkundlarkundla Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    I am seriously concerned about vat reliability if one failed print without the teflon would cause the PDMS to tear. 

    Have you provided any guidance on how to separate a failed print from the vat without causing damage to the telfon/PDMS layer?

    How thick is the PDMS layer in the vat? Can the vat PDMS layer be increased to provide a tear resistant surface if the vat height is increased as well?

    Everyone who is trying to get their printers set up and calibrated are at risk of prematurely damaging their vats due to the immaturity of the product.
    Ron
  • David_BarryDavid_Barry Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    In the other SLA printer I was using if I had a failed print the was stuck to vat I would rinse the Vat with IPA and the rinse with water. I made sure their was no liquid resin left in the VAT. I would then put the VAT under the curing lamp for 2 -3 hours. Since the Failed resin would be very thin it would curl up during the over curing.

    I want 3D Factures opinion on this method. Will this damage the Draken Vat wit the teflon?
    Hudson Valley, NY Draken Ultimate Package Arrived 7-6-2015
  • Joseph_OsbornJoseph_Osborn Member, Backers
    edited July 2015
    Everything I've ever read says it's better to work UP on your exposure times to avoid overexposing and ruining the PDMS layer.  The bottom exposure time on 3Dfacture's slicing profile is set to 22 seconds for 4 bottom layers.  That seems like a really, really long time for this class of machine.  I was expecting to only use 8-12 seconds *at most* for the bottom layers. 
    My point is, if someone does not change that 22 seconds to a smaller number, they will burn their vat rather quickly.  Someone just trying to get started with their machine is more likely to assume all the default values are safe to use. 

    @Andrew_3Dfacture: are you working with Steve Hernandez to create a more customized version of Creation Workshop so that the Draken is easier to get up and running?  Have you done any work on your own Draken software, as was promised in the Kickstarter?
  • Andrew_3DfactureAndrew_3Dfacture Member, Moderator, Backers
    I think we should clarify what does mean by one failed print without the teflon would cause the PDMS to tear.  The one print in case is actually a very tall object such as the liberty statue, which consists of thousands layers and take hours to print.  We used to do printing before we leave and leave it to print overnight on our old Vat without teflon layer.  The next morning, we find the print fails in the first few layers but DLP keep exposing at the same area over night a few thousands times, which directly burns the PDMS.

    In regular print such as the small height test cube, it won't burn in one print even without teflon coating. We barely find cases of damaged VAT with Teflon coating.

    To separate a failed print from the vat, we normally the provided tool to pull out the failed print attached to the VAT from the edge,  carefully clean out any left residue in the resin, and then keep printing. 

    What Dave suggested on cleaning out everything would be a good idea, but might be time consuming.  Not sure if it is good to put the VAT under curing lamp for 2 -3 hours. 
    The teflon should be heat resistant but I am more concerned about the
    acrylic part.
    curing lamp for 2 -3 hours
    how
    to separate a failed print from the vat without causing damage to the
    telfon/PDMS layer? - See more at:
    http://3dfacture.com/help/index.php?p=/discussion/162/so-any-successful-prints-yet#latest
    one
    failed print without the teflon would cause the PDMS to tear.  - See
    more at:
    http://3dfacture.com/help/index.php?p=/discussion/162/so-any-successful-prints-yet#latest
  • ThijsThijs Member, Backers
    @Joseph_Osborn So I guess that's a no
  • David_BarryDavid_Barry Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    The Other Vat I was using was Corning Glass with the PDMS. So  would not have had issue since no acrylic.
    PDMS
    Hudson Valley, NY Draken Ultimate Package Arrived 7-6-2015
  • rkundlarkundla Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    I would hope that the vat coating will resist a minute or two soak with IPA to help loosen the edges of the print. What I would worry about is any acrylic would not tolerate soaks in IPA. Websites mention that at high temperature (120F), there can be immediate damage to plexiglass acrylic and IPA.

    I have found in my iBox Nano with corning glass I can separate failed prints on the PDMS layer easier than I can the FEP tape after a brief soak in IPA. Of course this is probably apples to oranges, but I definately do not want to risk damage due to forcing the resin blob from the tank surface.
    Ron
  • Andrew_3DfactureAndrew_3Dfacture Member, Moderator, Backers
  • David_BarryDavid_Barry Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    Thank you
    Hudson Valley, NY Draken Ultimate Package Arrived 7-6-2015
  • ValterValter Member, Backers
    edited July 2015
    Guys. My english is not good. So I don't know if I understood very well. Please enlighten me. The draken's VAT came with problems or is a isolate problem? And I will get print a very tall object at 37 microns or I will lost my VAT always when to print a tall object?
    Thanks.
  • Joseph_OsbornJoseph_Osborn Member, Backers
    @Valter We do not know exactly what caused Shane's vat failure. Hopefully, Shane will give us more details soon. It is very worrisome that a new vat can be ruined so easily and quickly.
  • David_BarryDavid_Barry Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    I for one are not that worried. We are in the very early manufacturing runs of the Vats. 3D Facture does not have enough historical data on vat failures to improved the manufacturing process. After 2 few hundred vats are made and they get 30 - 40 vat failures 3dFacture will have a much improved and reliable VAT.

    Andrew_3Dfacture
    Andrew_3Dfacture offered to replace the Vat for shane as long as you can see it is a vat failure and not accidental damage from cleaning the Vat.
    Hudson Valley, NY Draken Ultimate Package Arrived 7-6-2015
  • rkundlarkundla Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    If we are beta testing vats, I'd like to hope that their replacement policy is a little more liberal than if it was a mature product. Still waiting on a 3DFacture sanctioned procedure for removing failed prints to minimize any damage. If I do it the way Andrew described it above and tear the liner, am I covered or am I out of luck?

    The other concern is that since everything is shipping from China, replacement vats may be shipped from there as well.
    Ron
  • sabotagesabotage Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer

    @Shane - we are willing send you to a replacement VAT if you find that failure is due to the defects in the production process. The teflon layer coating involves quite complicated process, we are improving the VAT manufacturing process to avoid any potential defects.

    Thanks @Andrew_3Dfacture.  I am back in range of network again, so I will post details on what I think happened and pictures of the failure later this evening when I get home from work.  Then you can assess what changes are needed in manufacturing and/or user documentation for settings and operation.

    Another hint is that do not print in the same area, in particular after a few failed prints.  The VAT could be damaged in one failed print when we use VAT without Telfon coating.  With Teflon coating, it is much better but still don't expect it to sustain lots of failed print in the same area, which accumulate tons of heat that damage the VAT.

    This one is particularly hard to change, since I have only printed 3 times, the first two being the pre-sliced calibration model. Because it was pre-sliced, changing it's position in the VAT is impossible w/out moving either the projector, or the VAT assemble in the XY axis.

    I had no indicators of a need to reposition this last model, and, admittedly, I was simply too excited to print something "real" and to finally figure out how to add supports, that it never even occurred to me to think about moving the model position to someplace other than the center of the VAT.

    When using the smaller resolution printer configurations, we really run into the problem of positioning in the VAT more and more, since the projector can only move in Z axis, and will always project to center of the VAT, the smaller resolutions will ONLY be able to print in the center of the VAT... unless I am missing something obvious?
    Shane...
    imageBacker(Ultimate Package - delivered on July 1, 2015)
  • sabotagesabotage Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    edited July 2015

    Details of my VAT/print failure

    Previous prints:
    • Used pre-sliced .cws file for calibration cube 
    • Used CreationWorkshopHost as the print engine, configured to use the provided BasePrintProfile.slicing and 3rd_50X50microns.machine configurations
    • Projector mounted in 3rd position (as counted from the top)
    • Other than calibration issues, both prints were successful, no obvious evidence of issues
    • Between all prints, the VAT was cleaned with the following procedure:
      • Remaining resin poured into blue bottle sent with resins
      • Residual resin in VAT gently wiped out with paper towels
      • VAT was then rinsed with plain water, followed by lightly soapy water, followed with a final rinse of plain water
      • Residual water in VAT soaked up with paper towel
      • Finally, a paper towel with IPA on it was used as a final wipe down



    Conditions and changes for failed print:


    • The primary difference was that I changed the Z Lift Distance from the default of 1mm to 0, per suggestion on the Slicing wiki that this would be OK
    Z lift Distance is the distance used for Z lift , this value is vary from difference, for Draken you can use 1mm or smaller, even 0mm, because of Draken has tilt system;

    • This model has 866 layers
    • Layer exposure times also differed

    • Resolutions were different as well



    Below is a complete side by side diff of all the GCode settings of the calibration prints (on the left) and the failed print (on the right).  Lines that are blue were in one file, but completely missing in the other, pink lines show where something changed between the two files.  Red highlights are the specific characters that changed









    calibration-prints.gcodefailed-print.gcode


    ;(****Build and Slicing Parameters****)

    ;(Pix per mm X            = 27.04225 px/mm )

    ;(Pix per mm Y            = 27.00000 px/mm )

    ;(X Resolution            = 1920 )

    ;(Y Resolution            = 1080 )

    ;(Layer Thickness         = 0.05000 mm )

    ;(Layer Time              = 4000 ms )

    ;(Bottom Layers Time      = 8000 ms )

    ------

    ------

    ------

    ;(Number of Bottom Layers = 4 )

    ;(Blanking Layer Time     = 3400 ms )

    ;(Build Direction         = Bottom_Up)

    ;(Lift Distance           = 1 mm )

    ;(Slide/Tilt Value        = 0)

    ;(Anti Aliasing           = True)

    ;(Use Mainlift GCode Tab  = False)

    ;(Anti Aliasing Value     = 1.5 )

    ;(Z Lift Feed Rate        = 50.00000 mm/s )

    ------

    ;(Z Lift Retract Rate     = 100.00000 mm/s )

    ;(Flip X                  = False)

    ;(Flip Y                  = True)

    ;Number of Slices        =  66

    ;(****Machine Configuration ******)

    ;(Platform X Size         = 71mm )

    ;(Platform Y Size         = 40mm )

    ;(Platform Z Size         = 200mm )

    ;(Max X Feedrate          = 100mm/s )

    ;(Max Y Feedrate          = 100mm/s )

    ;(Max Z Feedrate          = 100mm/s )

    ;(Machine Type            = UV_DLP)




    ;(****Build and Slicing Parameters****)

    ;(Pix per mm X            = 20.00000 px/mm )

    ;(Pix per mm Y            = 20.00000 px/mm )

    ;(X Resolution            = 1920 )

    ;(Y Resolution            = 1080 )

    ;(Layer Thickness         = 0.05000 mm )

    ;(Layer Time              = 6500 ms )

    ;(Bottom Layers Time      = 22000 ms )

    ;(Outline Width Inset     = 2

    ;(Outline Width Outset    = 0

    ;(Render Outlines         = False

    ;(Number of Bottom Layers = 4 )

    ;(Blanking Layer Time     = 3400 ms )

    ;(Build Direction         = Bottom_Up)

    ;(Lift Distance           = 0 mm )

    ;(Slide/Tilt Value        = 0)

    ;(Anti Aliasing           = True)

    ;(Use Mainlift GCode Tab  = False)

    ;(Anti Aliasing Value     = 1.5 )

    ;(Z Lift Feed Rate        = 50.00000 mm/s )

    ;(Z Bottom Lift Feed Rate = 25.00000 mm/s )

    ;(Z Lift Retract Rate     = 100.00000 mm/s )

    ;(Flip X                  = False)

    ;(Flip Y                  = True)

    ;Number of Slices        =  866

    ;(****Machine Configuration ******)

    ;(Platform X Size         = 96mm )

    ;(Platform Y Size         = 54mm )

    ;(Platform Z Size         = 100mm )

    ;(Max X Feedrate          = 100mm/s )

    ;(Max Y Feedrate          = 100mm/s )

    ;(Max Z Feedrate          = 100mm/s )

    ;(Machine Type            = UV_DLP)



    Pictures of the failure


    Torn Teflon/PDMS layer after I first noticed it and stopped the print
    image



    Close up of the tear:

    image



    Damage to the Teflon/PDMS layer in the vat:

    image



    Closeup of the Teflon/PDMS tear/hole:

    image



    Incomplete model, with torn section of Teflon/PDMS "bonded" to the print:

    image



    The Teflon/PDMS layer after removal (not hard to do as separation was all the way to the edges of the VAT):

    image



    Resin blob that leaked through the hole and cured on the acrylic bottom of the VAT:

    image


    Shane...
    imageBacker(Ultimate Package - delivered on July 1, 2015)
  • sabotagesabotage Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    My assesment as to how this happened is a combination of factors:
    1. Possibly the use of IPA and it weakening the the coating (this is pure speculation at this point though)
    2. Changing the Z lift distance to 0, despite the suggestion from the wiki that this would be OK
    3. The extra long exposure times (22s, compared to 8s on calibration model) weakening the coating
    4. Printing in the same location 3 times in a row
    I firmly believe that #2 in the above list is the primary source of the failure, and until we have solid evidence, I DO NOT recommend setting Z Lift Distance to 0!

    Regarding the use of IPA... Ive had long discussions with others familiar with similar issues on the Form1, and the B9 Creator, that if the Acrylic is extruded (vs. molded) and not annealed (heat treated to relieve internal stresses due to extrusion and forming), then it will be very susceptible to crazing and weakening bonds.

    It is clear from some of my pictures above that I am seeing significant crazing (micro fracturing) on all surfaces of the VAT that use the orange acrylic.  This suggests that 3D Facture should look into their Acrylic supplier and research how the product they are using is manufactured and if they can perform annealing.

    My use of IPA was VERY minimal, consisting of only wiping down the surfaces with a pre-soaked paper towel.  I did not submerge the VAT, or drench it in IPA.  The crazing appeared in under 24hours after the wipe down.  Here are some more pictures of the crazing:
    image
    image

    One final observation... it seems that the VAT bottom layer (clear arylic, or is that the PDMS?) is NOT being properly seated level with the rest of the vat top/bottom plane.  In the following pictures, you can see that the front is flush and tight, but as you look around the VAT, the sides reveal that the bottom is sloping UP towards the top of the VAT, resulting in a 3mm rise from front to back!  Surely this can't be good for calibration, right?  It also makes for an uneven thickness in the Teflon coating which could also be contributing to my calibration difficulties.  Here are pictures showing this manufacturing issue that likely needs some quality assurance review process.

    VAT front, nice tight and level seam:
    image
    VAT right side, note the bottom seam slope up from front to back by 3mm: 
    image
    VAT back side, with a 3mm gap from VAT bottom to VAT frame:
    image
    VAT left side, note the bottom seam slope up from front to back by 3mm:
    image
    Shane...
    imageBacker(Ultimate Package - delivered on July 1, 2015)
  • ValterValter Member, Backers
    Thank you very much sabotage to share with us your unfortunate event. :(
    I think that 3DFacture has many work to do on VAT yet. At least an warnings of how to work. :(
  • rkundlarkundla Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    Wow Shane, very detailed! I hope 3DFacture is able to use your data to improve the vat quality.

    I used IPA to break loose a stuck print and noticed the crazing on the sides of my tank within 30 minutes. I was very surprised to see it happen, then noticed in the user manual not to use IPA at all in the vat.

    I finally got the calibration print to stick last night. Here is a photo:

    image

    Printed at 50 micron, slot 3, casual focus and projector tilt adjustment without the grid. X-Y dimension was 21 mm square, so pretty close to the expected 20 mm per CWS. I will have to experiment more later, but ran into a problem with my vertical locking knob.

    Ron
    Ron
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