So what projector do we need to buy?

satoersatoer Member, Backers
edited July 2015 in General Discussion
I can’t find an advice on what projector we should buy. So what’s the best beamer to use with the dragon?

Which projector has the shortest curing time, which projector is easily hacked into a better beamer (like removing color wheel). Which projector has the longest lamp-life. Or maybe price-wise what’s the cheapest projector that still has good quality.
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Comments

  • David_BarryDavid_Barry Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    edited July 2015
    Based on the current firmware I would stay with the Acer. Acer-H6510BD this is projector we are all using so far.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Acer-H6510BD-1080p-Cinema-Projector/dp/B00B2EFZCG


    Having a projector in your Draken that is the same a majority of other Draken owners will give you the most supports out of the forums and Creation workshop one Draken profile is added to the software.
    Hudson Valley, NY Draken Ultimate Package Arrived 7-6-2015
  • satoersatoer Member, Backers
    Yes I know, but the Draken was designed and advertised to use different projectors, so I really would like to hear some choices.

    The Acer-H6510BD is that also the best projector for the job, or was it just the cheapest solution. There are better projectors out there which cost a bit more, but have better specs.
    Like the Optoma HD141X (about 50$ more expensive) but has a contrast ration of 23.000:1 instead of 10.000:1
    or the Optoma HD26 which has 200 lumen more and a contrast ratio of 25:000:1 (and about 100$ more expensive).

    A higher contrast ratio means sharper lines and less spill light right?
  • Joseph_OsbornJoseph_Osborn Member, Backers
    From the looks of the projector mount, it only has holes for the Acer P1500/H6510HD and Viewsonic PJD7820HD (all these projectors are in the same family). You can drill new holes into the mount for other projectors, but the holes would have to be precise so the projector is square to the print bed. Or make slots so you can fine-tune the projector's position. Also, the different hanger holes for the XY resolutions would probably be incorrect with other projectors, as would the corresponding machine profiles in Creation Workshop.
  • rkundlarkundla Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    Yep I concur with @Joseph_Osborn.

    During the early beta phase, having the same projector allows us all to be on the same page when dealing with issues. Once the behavior of the printer is well known for one projector, others can be tried to see how they behave and what needs to be done to make them work.

    Projectors with different lenses will have different throw distances and the resolution at each peg will be different. Calibration using the grid printout can help, but it would be difficult. The resin printers that have a 45° mirror can take just about any projector as long as you can focus the image on that mirror and the get the alignment/focus right.
    Ron
  • skaadskaad Member, Backers
    Is everyone so far using the Acer-H6510BD projector or is another projector in the running? I got the shipping survey, so it is time to purchase a projector. . .
  • ThijsThijs Member, Backers
    I still haven't received a shipping survey =D>
  • rkundlarkundla Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    I think the Acer H6510BD is what went out to all the Ultimate Backers and I have been pretty pleased with it so far in my testing.

    There may be other projectors you can use, but it won't mount to the Draken without modifying the projector mounting plate or creating a new one.
    Ron
  • ThijsThijs Member, Backers
    I mean shipping invoice X_X my bad
  • satoersatoer Member, Backers
    edited September 2015
    So, it’s looking that the printer is coming my way. Still haven’t decided on the projector. So please 3D facture, what option’s for the projector doe we have besides the Acer? I believe the Acer was the cheapest solution, but what about the projectors I mentioned earlier?

    "Like the Optoma HD141X (about 50$ more expensive) but has a contrast ration of 23.000:1 instead of 10.000:1
    or the Optoma HD26 which has 200 lumen more and a contrast ratio of 25:000:1 (and about 100$ more expensive)."


    I’ve heard the Acers lens sharpness isn’t that good on the borders. Is the acer the projector everybody is using in the SLA printing community?
    Which projector is easily modable? Maybe put an UV lamp inside it? What’s the research on that? Mounting hole compatibility isn’t a problem. I’ve got this handy tool:
    image
  • Joseph_OsbornJoseph_Osborn Member, Backers
    I've read at least one review on the HD141X that mentioned poor focus when displaying spreadsheets, so its optics may be similar to the Acer (cheap and geared toward video). I've been trying to find some reviews of the newest Infocus projectors-- these are geared toward business use and I suspect the focus may be better, but I have not been able to confirm.
  • GravelleGravelle Member, Backers
    I would be hesitant to use an electric drill to manually add mounting holes.  It sounds like an excellent opportunity to hang your projector at a slight angle so that you get skewed parts.  That's just me.  If I were you I'd probably make a template out of plywood or something so that your drill doesn't drift as you're drilling 
    Check out my Youtube channel Garage Science for videos and tutorials about printing with the Draken.
  • rkundlarkundla Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    edited September 2015
    All consumer grade projectors will have some type of issues on the outer fringes of the optics. Think about how cameras work and there is a reason why quality lenses are very expensive.

    I don't think it is reasonable thinking to assume you will get the full build area to be razor sharp, but maybe that is just my pessimism on technology in general.

    The orientation of the printer requires a projector that has an offset lens. That restricts the type of projector you can use. The ones with center mounted lenses will be very difficult to use.

    Also, the lumens will effect your exposure time. The more lumens, the faster the cure. Also DLP is a must have technology. If you want more lumens, you can always doctor the color wheel to give off more white light. I haven't tried that on the Acer yet. The color wheel looked a little more difficult to get at inside its housing.

    If you are concerned about resolution, then you want to get a projector that has a throw ratio >1.5. The projectors used by the b9creator allow them to get down to the 30 micron level using those Vivtek projectors. You can use this search function at ProjectorCentral to narrow your search down to 1920x1080 projectors with throws greater than 1.5 - or search the reviews until you find one that has the lens requirements you are looking for.
    Ron
  • Joseph_OsbornJoseph_Osborn Member, Backers
    I think the Viviteks on the B9Creators are modified with a spacer to focus closer and make the projected image smaller (higher resolution).  That's why they only sell their kits with projectors.  

    The mUVe and Titan 1 both use the Viewsonic/Acer projectors as standard, so I'm going to go with the Viewsonic myself.  These projectors are proven to work and they are relatively inexpensive.  As things evolve in the next couple of years, we may see an affordable UV-powered DLP engine (similar to the one in the Moonray) become available, and it should be easy enough to integrate something like that into the Draken.  That would be an ideal solution to me.  

  • satoersatoer Member, Backers
    @Joseph: So what's the reason you want the viewsonic (PJD7820HD)? The Higher contrast ratio? (15.000 vs 10.000)
  • Joseph_OsbornJoseph_Osborn Member, Backers
    satoer said:

    @Joseph: So what's the reason you want the viewsonic (PJD7820HD)? The Higher contrast ratio? (15.000 vs 10.000)

    Better warranty and usually costs a few dollars less.

  • rkundlarkundla Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer

    As things evolve in the next couple of years, we may see an affordable UV-powered DLP engine (similar to the one in the Moonray) become available, and it should be easy enough to integrate something like that into the Draken.  That would be an ideal solution to me.  

    Has anyone seen this projector you mentioned? I went to the kickstarter page and read up on it. Their one claim to 50,000 hours bulb life reeks of LED based bulbs, similar to the iBox Nano. Also, their calibration scheme was very similar to how iBox tunes the individual LEDs of the Nano array to have a 'uniform' brightness. I saw a video of the internals. They have some optics, attached to the box. It will be interesting to see how they make this all work. Some variant of the Nano perhaps? Hmm...
    Ron
  • Joseph_OsbornJoseph_Osborn Member, Backers
    Absolutely nothing wrong with UV LED technology.  It's not just 3D printing that is benefiting from the combining UV LED with DMD to create "maskless" photolithography.  It's being used in all kinds of applications that formerly used traditional screen printing.  That's all we're doing, really-- fancy screen printing! 


    As for the Moonray, we'll see in another few months if it is as easy to use and dependable as they claim.  On paper, it's a great machine.  Another great "on-paper" machine was the Form 1 ;)
  • Andrew_3DfactureAndrew_3Dfacture Member, Moderator, Backers
    edited September 2015
    We have tested a UV-powered DLP engine recently.  A few observations:
    Pros: 
    Uniform light distribution,  low heat, smaller dimension, powerful UV light thus shorter exposure time.

    Cons:
    DMD chip is 720p, thus 50 micron resolution while twice as expensive as a regular 1080p DLP projector.
    Contrast is low, might need a UV filter which reduces the UV power.

    Unknown:
    Not sure about life time/warranty (no manufacturer warranty for UV DMD).

    How do you feel to about this in comparison with a regular 1080p projector?    Your comments are appreciated to help us decide our R&D pathway.

  • rkundlarkundla Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    I guess it really depends on the application. For jewelry, I don't need a large build area unless I want to mass product an item. Even then, you can't use the full display space due to the optics not being as sharp on the outer perimeter.

    At 720p with a smaller build area, I might be able to use it at 50 micron X-Y. I haven't tried yet to do some prints at 50 micron to compare against my 41 micron config.

    Being able to speed up the printing process is where the future money is at. Exposure and the time it takes to peel and move the build plate are the areas that would have the most impact going forward.
    Ron
  • satoersatoer Member, Backers
    edited September 2015
    The Viewsonic isn’t available in the Netherlands. I’m more geared to use the Optima HD26 projector:
    http://www.optomaeurope.com/projectordetailshe.aspx?PTypeDB=Home Entertainment&PC=HD26
    Compared to the Acer:
    -    25.000:1 contrast ratio instead of 10.000:1
    -    3200 Ansi lumen instead of 3000
    -    26 dB instead of 34 dB noise

    Both 1080p DLP and the minimum projection distance is 1.5m
    This worries me by the way. The Acer is also 1.5m. How can it focus with such a small distance in the Draken?
    Anything else I need to keep in mind selecting the projector?
  • kniborknibor Member, Backers
    edited September 2015
    @satoer it sounds like a nice beamer but it won't fit the Draken ;) The lense of the Optoma is more to the center of the beamer ;) So I'm afraid you gonna get in trouble. I myself bought the Acer H6510BD at the mediamarkt with lowest price guarantee (they sell it for 690 or something and I bought it for 540 or something like that, not quite sure) just google around for the lowest price and buy it with mediamarkt :P the shop I saw it on didn't seem trustworthy... that's why I went to mediamarkt ;) 
  • rkundlarkundla Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    I think the minimum projection distance is for a particular sized output, like a 100" diagonal image. 

    It's all about the focal length of the lens. If I remember my physics, I could probably show it using math or a pretty drawing. ;) The thing to remember is that the focus element needs to have the range to allow it to re-focus on the close area.

    image
    You can get an in-focus image if you intersect that triangle parallel to the lens, the size just varies. The focus ring is used to compensate for the variable focal length of the zoom lens.
    Ron
  • satoersatoer Member, Backers
    Thanks for the reply's.
    I’ve discovered that the Optima hasn’t got RS232 remote control. So that one is besides the wrong lens position also remote control incompatible.
    I guess l go for the Acer after all.
    knibor said:

    @satoer it sounds like a nice beamer but it won't fit the Draken ;) The lense of the Optoma is more to the center of the beamer ;) So I'm afraid you gonna get in trouble. I myself bought the Acer H6510BD at the mediamarkt with lowest price guarantee (they sell it for 690 or something and I bought it for 540 or something like that, not quite sure) just google around for the lowest price and buy it with mediamarkt :P the shop I saw it on didn't seem trustworthy... that's why I went to mediamarkt ;) 

    Wow, that’s a really nice price. Lowest I could find was 579 at Coolblue (what’s a reliable webshop)
  • kniborknibor Member, Backers
    edited September 2015
    Coolblue was my first tought too... but they also struggle to deliver... and they raised the price the day before I wanted to order... And had to wait 2-6 weeks for delivery... So I didn't went for that option while my draken  was already on his way ;) Mediamarkt also handles a delivery time but only is something like 1-2 weeks :)
  • Someone here at one point mentioned the ViewSonic PJD7822HDL as being a newer model of the PJD7820HD.  It has 3200 lumens vs 3000, lamp life 5,000 hrs vs 4,000, min throw distance 3.3' vs 6.0'.  Looks like the same case, same size dimensions.  I  have no experience printing so don't go by what I say but, what's not to like about this model?

    (Except of course if it's unavailable in your area)
  • satoersatoer Member, Backers
    Thanks! The PJD7822HDL is just 20€ more expensive than the Acer over here. Now I'm leaning towards that one.
  • kniborknibor Member, Backers
    edited September 2015
    I understood from FTD that lumens is only important for the visable spectrum which isn't the one you use with 3Dprinting :) So it doesn't say anything about the UV output directly ;) they use the wattage of the bulp as an guideline using the acer usage woulde be much easier as most of us are planning on that option so you can use theor settings as guidelines :)
  • ThijsThijs Member, Backers
    You could just order both and print the same model with the same settings and compare the output. Return the one with the least quality output since you have a 14 day period to do so
  • rkundlarkundla Member, Moderator, Backers, Ultimate Backer
    Thijs said:

    You could just order both and print the same model with the same settings and compare the output. Return the one with the least quality output since you have a 14 day period to do so

    While I am usually not a fan of this method, it would be the best way to tell. Measuring the near UV output of the project is the most difficult thing. The equipment to do such a thing isn't cheap. ;) 
    Ron
  • I am guesstimating  the shorter throw distance of the PJD7822HDL, if it really is shorter, might allow more leeway focusing in the calibration grid for higher resolution.
    PJD7822HDL
    PJD7822HDL
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